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Maggie McKay (Host): Infertility, it's far more common than most of us know. It affects 6.7 million women in the US or about 11% of the reproductive age population. But what happens when fertility issues come up, making the dream of starting a family, much harder than anticipated. Couples need support to navigate this emotional and stressful journey.

So, how do you get started? Joining us today is Mark Sherman, Co-founder and CEO of Organic Conceptions and partner with Reproductive Science Center of the San Francisco Bay area. Mark will discuss how Organic Conceptions helps couples with emotional support through the fertility journey and beyond.

This is Fertile Edge, a podcast from Reproductive Science Center of the San Francisco Bay area. I'm your host, Maggie McKay. Thanks for being here, Mark.

Mark Sherman (Guest): Oh, you're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

Host: Absolutely. So, you had a corporate career for 20 years before launching this program. What made you and your wife Erin decide to take this path?

Mark: Well, you know, we struggled to conceive for close to a decade collectively, and I think that anyone who's listening, the word struggle is probably an understatement in terms of what it means to you as a person, what it means to you as a couple, and really how it changes your enthusiasm for life. And we had a long, long battle struggling to conceive and most of our time and effort was focused on physically getting ourselves well. And along that path, there was very little to support us emotionally to help prepare our minds just as we're preparing our bodies.

Host: And what type of patient is OC designed to serve?

Mark: You know, honestly, everything that we know is that anyone who's seeking out fertility treatment, they've already gone through so many disappointments, setbacks. They're generally frustrated with their bodies. They're comparing themselves to others. Some people have experienced loss along the way.

And the reality is, these emotions, they don't go away. They live with us and there's actually a lot of data that even speaks to when there is a successful outcome, the fact that this is a traumatic experience, and even with success, if people have not properly really processed what it is that they're going through, then it really can show up in our lives both during our journey trying to conceive as well as when, or if people achieve success, it kind of stays with us. So, I think it's ultimately, it's anyone that feels that heavy weight when you're living with such uncertainty. And that's the way I'd really define what this feels like. You're living with uncertainty and you don't feel like you're in control the way you would like to be. And I think that so many people becomes, it leads to worry and anxiety and other unhealthy emotions.

Host: What do you see as the benefits Mark for patients to proactively address their emotional health as part of treatment?

Mark: Yeah, I think it's just, you know, for so many people and we lived it, my wife and I, Erin, you, there's so much preparation on preparing your body and there's so much, we know our numbers and there's so much testing that happens. But at the end of the day, most of us are kind of neglecting our minds.

And that's very normal. We're told to stay strong, keep moving forward and just really hang in there. And I think for some people we think about the mental health pieces is often times maybe the sign of weakness or something that you only do if you have experienced a setback. And I think that what we uncovered in our research is that there was these nine psychological stages or these emotional transitions that people face when kind of living with that fertility crisis mindset, and we created this digital platform that moves them to a methodology that moves them from crisis into a sense of emotional health and wellness and a level of victory in terms of emotionally being healthy and well. So, I think the way we help people is honestly just like the way we grieve.

There's a certain pattern, set of stages that we go through when we grieve, when we uncovered, essentially in this research is that there's a common journey the people experience when they're struggling to conceive. And when you can give people the words, the language and the context to find themselves, when they feel like they're on this rollercoaster, it's an incredibly powerful and healing.

Host: I'm sure it feels very lonely when you're going through it, but it's amazing how many people, when you open up, talk about their experiences and how they have had the same journey almost, but what is cognitive behavior therapy and how does it help infertile people?

Mark: Yeah, I think at the end of the day, you know, for all the people that we've helped over the years through our platform, most people are really being tired of being told to just relax and they might do some things, some wellness things that make them feel calm or less stress for a day or two, but then they have that sinking thought that comes back into their minds. And I think what we're trying to do with the courses and the platform is to help really people go through a gradual process, and take incremental steps towards really reframing the situation that they're in today and realizing that there's some choice in terms of how you interpret what you're going through, the meaning and personalization that people give it, and really the life that you create around the struggle.

And I think through our approach and our methodology, you're able to essentially help people create and cultivate a healthy mindset and try to restore balance to a situation that feels like for many, you know, something that feels out of control. And I think what cognitive behavioral therapy does for all of us is that it just gets to the root of the negative thoughts, the self-defeating behaviors, and really the unproductive emotions that can erode someone's quality of life and certainly their reproductive health.

Host: And why did you partner with RSC?

Mark: I think many reasons. For once I think you have a clinic that just recognizes that when it comes to protocols around emotional support and empowerment, if you think about physical treatment has advanced in the last decade, it's pretty amazing how the protocols have changed in what these physicians and certainly the talented team at RSC, what they can do. When it comes to emotional health, I think RSC recognized that like a lot of clinics that this is sometimes not really thought about, unless someone's going through a setback or really becomes emotional during a visit and RSC and that team there, they're just constantly raising the bar and the standard of care, both physically and emotionally, and I think the reality is that not every person seeks out therapy and many therapists are consumed with these third party cases. So, I think that they were looking for a digital platform that can help bring emotional support and empowerment to every single one of their patients. And the biggest thing that is incredible, that they did, is realizing that this shouldn't be a choice. It's a center of the model should be the human being in the human experience and they're providing a resource to every single one of their patients gets access to the courses, or our live support calls, our community, et cetera. So, at the end of the day they are a clinic that is passionate about care. They care greatly about their patients and outcomes, and I think they recognize the importance of treating people physically and emotionally.

Host: What about the RSC staff? How could your program help them serve patients better? What do you see as the benefits to providing staff resources, to support their emotional health and to ensure that they're prepared to best support patients?

Mark: Yeah, it's a critical piece of the overall puzzle. You have these incredible staff members who give their lives to care for these patients who are in a situation that they're so vulnerable. And I think at the end of the day, it's about empowering the staff with education, training, knowledge that enables them to continue to advance the way in which they care and engage and communicate and empathize while at the same time, how do we ensure that our staff is healthy and well themselves?

You know, I had a clinic share that a loss to the patient is a loss to the staff. And these staff members are keeping these people going. These are some courageous patients and some incredible staff members that give everything they can to keep people, you know, optimistic and healthy and well. And I just think that we need to make sure that they're properly trained, cared for, and that we avoid things like fatigue and burnout.

Host: That's such a good point because I mean, just look at the pandemic and the nurses and doctors and what they've been through. It's so emotional. I mean, that is of course on a whole different scale, but we have to look out for the people taking care of us, right?

Mark: This team at RSC, they're heroes. What they give, how they serve and you're right. You layer on top of what we've all been through over the last year. Protocols have changed, more things are happening over the phone. They got people in masks, sometimes spouses can't be there. So, the level of support and engagement, there's just a lot more that, that rides on the staff.

And we know that the patient, just the nursing teams, the patient care teams, they mean the world to that particular patient and the ability to serve the patient well means serving the staff well.

Host: Can you give us some examples of how cognitive behavior helps patients, how patients have used it or benefited from it?

Mark: Yeah. I think generally everything that we look at and measure, I would just say in the simplest terms, it's, you give people a voice. You said it earlier. It's like when people feel like there aren't, they can't make sense of what it is that they're going through. And for so many people, they actually say, I felt bad about the negative thoughts that I was having about myself, my body, others.

So, when you give people a voice and they feel less alone, there's just a sense of renewed trust. We had a couple complete the program and they said, you know what? The program taught us that we are comparing ourselves to everyone else. And he said, this is our journey. It's not our friends, our neighbors, our sisters.

And they took a level of ownership and pride that our families come to be in unique ways. And sometimes that's hard to see when we're living in our own crisis. But when you can give someone perspective and knowledge and understanding from hundreds of stories that we researched, that led to this approach, you give people their, in many ways, you give them their life back.

You're able to help people improve the quality of life. For most people, your life goes on hold, you kind of give up living because you're living to try and you feel like you can't enjoy life or experience joy or love until you have success. And I think what we're helping people recognize that this time now matters and their journeys are unique and they're their journey, not someone else's.

And when you can take ownership and move people away from feeling broken and the anger and the jealousy and the sadness and social isolation and move people to a more healthy quality of life, during their journey and trusting the process that they're going through, it becomes a powerful part of the model.

Host: That's awesome. You do such great work. I can't tell you Mark, how many times I've heard of people who have been trying, tried everything, you know, in vitro just every process possible and then just gave up and thought maybe they would adopt and when they let it go, then they get pregnant. Like just out of the blue.

Mark: I didn't expand on this when you asked me how we got started. I sometimes share it, sometimes I don't, but my wife and I had two separate experiences just like that, where after years of trying, we decided to shift our path, move towards adoption. And we had this unexpected surprise, the miracle baby.

And you hear these stories quite often at face value. They're absolutely useless and frustrating and really discounts what it is you're going through and how much you're working towards solving this. But when we had that twice, that's what led us to wanting to research all variations of people that struggled for years, and then had this unexpec,ted conception.

Some people, it was their last fertility treatment. Then they were done. And through the research, we uncovered these nine stages that were common across these stories. So it's funny that you say that that was exactly what happened to my wife and I, it was, we were so thrilled that it happened to us, but we were so frustrated with it that we became that annoying story and we just said gotta be more to these stories than what you learn about at face value. And we partner with a PhD, Dr. K Webster, and that's kind of led to the start of our organization.

Host: Well, good for you for doing that. I mean, just think of all the people whose lives you're changing literally.

Mark: Oh it's, incredible work to be able to serve people and take a personal situation that we had and kind of pass it forward in a healthy way to give people that understanding and perspective, and because it's a digital tool, people are able to engage in the privacy of their own home and don't need to feel embarrassed about needing mental health support. It's a hard journey. It is normal to feel so difficult during the process and feeling overwhelmed, but there's so much hope and these people are brave. And I think that we can do our little part to help.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us Mark it was very informative and hopefully encouraging to people listening who are going through it.

You're very welcome.

Host: To get in touch with Mark, please go to www.organic-conceptions.com. And to learn more, please visit RSCbayarea.com. And if you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels and check out our entire podcast library for topics that interest you. This is Fertile Edge, a podcast by Reproductive Science Center of the San Francisco Bay Area. I'm Maggie McKay. Thanks for listening.